Fugitives from Fundamentalism

The Musings of Adult Missionary Kids (MKs) & Former Born-Again Believers

Jesus’ Resurrection Debunked. In one page.

Posted by Ann on October 14, 2010

Okay, so I admit. I’m a John Loftus junkie. I go to his blog almost daily. Every once in a while a blogger catches my fancy, and Debunking Christianity got me hooked. At least a couple of times a week I read something on his blog I think of reproducing here. But…it would be a little silly to copy everything he puts up, no? This one I can’t resist though. His blog is a one stop blog for current atheist news and thoughts on-line, so I don’t feel guilty lifting this since he does the same thing a lot. Loftus got this from Chris Hallquist: Jesus’ Resurrection, Debunked in One Page. Nice.

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24 Responses to “Jesus’ Resurrection Debunked. In one page.”

  1. snardiff said

    Loftus is an inarticulate cretin who stumbles over his own tongue and cannot form coherent thoughts. His idiotic posts always leave logical holes big enough to drive a truck through. He is a buffoon that only ends up making atheists look stupid. What’s to like about him, except that he is persistent?

    • Charity said

      LOL!!! If you say so.

    • Bob said

      Snardiff, are you performing an ad hominem attack on Loftus because you lack the knowledge and cognitive ability to analyze and explain one of those “logical holes” you refer to? I assure you that we can have a discussion about Loftus’ ideas, if you are so inclined. Otherwise, please keep in mind that an unspoken rule on this site is that ad hominem attacks must be accompanied by some sort of a reasoned response that addresses the concepts at issue. We leave the back and forth flaming, that contains no content other than ad hominems, to the other sites out there. Thanks!
      -Bob

    • Bob said

      Check it out guys: Snardiff is this anonymous account that was created to surf the web for atheist books for sale on the internet: google search of Snardiff Snardiff then leaves bad reviews that make it obvious (unintentionally, I imagine) he hasn’t read the book in question.

  2. Paulo said

    I will comment on the actual post, though, and leave the trolls alone… I checked out the link to the page and I only have this to say: Fundamentalists will skim over those reasons (they may just read the bold type and nothing else) and say that disproves nothing. Why? Because they’re willing to listen to reason on just about anything else except when it comes to the Bible. Those events were “miracles”, an exception to the natural order of things and contrary to all reason. And of course, God will reward them for their faith, not their skepticism.

    • JN said

      Even if every single one of his points is valid, it doesn’t necessitate that Jesus’s resurrection didn’t happen (or didn’t happened).

      [b]1. There is no evidence for the resurrection outside the Bible.[/b]
      There is no evidence for many events throughout history. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Although Jesus’s death is a pivotal moment in history, at the time it probably didn’t seem like anything too out of the ordinary.

      [b]2. There is little evidence that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses, or based directly on
      eyewitness accounts.[/b]
      Many histories are not written down right away. African histories, for example, were mostly oral until someone wrote them down later. It does not mean that these histories are necessarily true or false.

      [b]3. This means that the Gospels can’t be trusted as evidence for miracles.[/b]
      Maybe, but it doesn’t mean that miracles didn’t happen.

      [b]4.One of Paul’s letters provides evidence that a number of people claimed Jesus had appeared to
      them after his death. But this isn’t proof of a miracle. [/b]
      Again, this may not qualify as proof, but it doesn’t mean a miracle never happened.

      [b]5. Reports that Jesus’ disciples were martyred prove nothing.[/b]
      OK. This is probably a response to scholars who argue that the strong beliefs of the disciples and their willingness to die for Christ is evidence that something real happened.

      [b]6. Claims that this or that individual couldn’t possibly have hallucinated are nonsense.[/b]
      Fine. This claim is really open to a semantic game. “Couldn’t possibly” is tricky wording. Of course they could have hallucinated. I might hallucinate from time to time, but it doesn’t mean I’m hallucinating now or that I hallucinated when I witnessed a car slamming into the front wheel of my bicycle.

      [b]7. Even if there were several people in Paul’s day who would have claimed to have all seen the
      risen Jesus at the same time, their testimony might not have stood up to scrutiny.[/b]
      Again, kind of the same deal.

      In the end, I don’t think the one page proves or disproves a whole lot. Naturally people are going to bring in their own opinions and presuppositions. The “one page” thing is cute, but it can’t be taken too seriously. I am not very familiar with the author, but this article seems a bit lazy. At the end of the day, everyone can pat themselves on the back for knowing the “real” truth.

      • JN said

        Just pretend the [b][/b] thing is the real bold code. Some forums use the other style, and I get mixed up sometimes.

      • JN said

        Also…the “(or didn’t happen)” should be “(or did)” happen. I’m on a roll. And by “roll” I mean that I am literally sitting on a piece of bread about the size of a cupcake.

      • Ann said

        The one page of arguments debunking Jesus’ resurrection is not meant to be used to argue exhaustively against a believer who believes in miracles. It is making the point there is no valid reason to believe in Jesus’ resurrection. If you are already suspending your rational mind to believe in the possibility of something happening 2000 years ago with no real evidence, then rational arguments will not convince you of anything. Miracles do not happen today, and have never happened in history, unless you suspend rationality and believe because the Bible says so, or some farmer in Kansas, then it must be true. The Bible has been thoroughly debunked already by Biblical scholars and the human mind is notoriously irrational. The only scholars who think the Bible is truth are religious ones (and might I rationally say, if you are religious you are already “brainwashed” to begin with and no rational argument will convince you out of your beliefs). Enough of this. I find this very boring (repetition).

        P.S. Like that you argued only the bold statements. I recognize that some fundamentalists actually do read the small print. They just can’t wrap their minds around it.

        • Ann said

          P.S.S. It is not belief to suspend belief without evidence. It is not faith to suspend faith due to lack of evidence. I’m not going to waste my life and energy and mind on something there is no evidence for to begin with. It’s not an opinion that there is no evidence.

        • JN said

          I know, right? This is the type of thing people like to print out and put on the refrigerator or next to the light switch in the office. Why limit it to one page? Why not just write: “Death is final. Miracles don’t happen.” It’s much shorter and less time consuming. Then he could write his spiel about reading his book in the fine print.

        • JN said

          P.S. on your P.S. Is a veiled attempt to call me stupid? We’re all friends here (I thought). If you want to call me stupid, go ahead and say it. I can only wrap my mind around such a statement. I am not exactly a Fundamentalist either.

          P.S.S. All I was saying in my post that the cheat sheet wasn’t effective, in my humble opinion. And you’re right, this is all boring. Tell Robert to throw up another song already so I can revisit my Johnny Cash catalog.

          • Ann said

            I know you are not stupid, nor are other Christians. It’s not BS when I write that I know intelligence has nothing to do with belief. I’m not veiling anything. I called you irrational. That’s different from stupid. Belief is so irrational, it seems pointless to continue these conversations with Christians.

            I am your friend. I don’t dislike you. But I know you believe this stuff and I don’t. And this is my only place to vent about my life experience in a world full of people who believe the way you do. So when you come on here I think you have to recognize you may be confronted. I don’t go on religious websites, ever, and write comments. Ever. That said, you can write here any time you want. But since you are here, and not on a religious website, you have to understand it’s a whole other me who wants to vent a little. I know how to be polite and hold my tongue when I’m with my religious friends. I would never go to a prayer meeting, or their churches, and tell them they are being irrational. LOL!

            P.S. Please continue commenting on our humble website JN any time a post catches your fancy.

            • JN said

              I’m not sure you know what I believe. I’m not always sure I know what I believe. More than likely I am somewhere between “us” and “them.” I come here because I’m interested in what other people have to say. I don’t try to place myself on a pedestal. I don’t pretend to be a young Prometheus. I’m just a person with an insatiable curiosity and a desire to live life. I’m aware of my limitations, or at least some of them. I realize at times I might be irrational, maybe even “brainwashed.” But that’s part of being human. We are just one more wave in a ceaseless tide: One day we know we’re right, the next day we’re proven wrong. I guess I’m OK with that, although I’d never admit it.

              • Ann said

                I don’t know exactly what you believe, but I know you are a Christian and have beliefs. Somewhere between us and them. But still beliefs. And being irrational is part of being human. However, I do think there is a difference between being a person who is willing to accept evidence that is irrefutable and someone who does not accept evidence that is irrefutable. Thus, I think some people do escape “brainwashing.” If I am currently brainwashed and someone provided me with solid evidence of that fact, I would accept the evidence. People with superstitious beliefs are immune to evidence, even when open to evidence debunking all of their other irrational ideas about themselves, others, and the world. Scientists have discovered solid indications that belief is rooted in our biology and human psychology.

                When I have a little more time, maybe this weekend, I plan to continue my series on irrational thought. Although it sounds like you prefer Robert’s music posts. I like Ministry’s, Jesus Built My Hotrod. One of my personal favorite irreligious songs. Went to a Ministry concert back in 1993 and saw it played live.

                • JN said

                  What is irrefutable evidence? And isn’t culture a form of societal “brainwash?” How is a person in the modern age supposed to be anything but brainwashed? We all fight it, to one extent or another. We are short-sighted creatures. We are all influenced by outside forces (not supernatural) that silently control our lives.

                  I’ll admit that I have been influenced by Christianity, but it doesn’t define who I am or even define my belief system. I’m not particularly superstitious. I don’t think you would find me particularly irrational if you knew me.

                  But anyway, here we are. I’m not wearing a mask. I’m not a Trojan horse. I have no traps waiting to be sprung. I am alone. I have no allies. I am the fool who approaches the world with a flower and leaves with a hole in his head.

                  You’re right. Maybe I am just nuts.

                • Ann said

                  If you know everything you do and think is a result of some kind of human culture, how is that brainwashed? Pardon me for assuming you are a Christian since I thought you attended church. I suppose you are more a mystical believer? I don’t know about men in black suits controlling my life. That would be paranoid. But I think you mean our societal systems? And need for money to get by? We all live within society. Some societies are more controlling than others. But if I wanted to I could go live in a cave somewhere, or be a bohemian or something and that would be that.

                • Ann said

                  And JN, I know you come in peace. Just so you know, as a therapist, I find everybody seems to be a little mad in their own ways. It’s a byproduct of being human I suppose. Elsewise we’d be animals and wouldn’t feel so much…or know we can be irrational.

                • JN said

                  I went a little overboard for you since I know you love metaphors. Ha!

                  So anyway, back to the topic. Maybe “culture” wasn’t the best term, since culture is so broad. I guess I meant elements of culture, or societal systems, that people don’t question. It’s hardwired into the way people think. It’d be a little arrogant of me to think that I am completely free of some sort of brainwashing. (Buy my book if you want the details.)

                  I am not too much of a mystical guy. I would hate for anyone to call me New Age. I go to church sometimes because it’s important to people around me. Many churches are relatively innocuous nowadays.

                  This site is called “Fugitives From Fundamentalism.” I sounds like it should be a place for people to share about experiences. This is what I’m interested in. I’m not so interested in brow bashing or constructing an intellectual hierarchy. Stratification isn’t my cup of tea. Atheists have their beliefs (or non-beliefs). Agnostics have theirs. Theists have theirs. Any one of those can be a fugitive from fundamentalism. Personally, I kind of gravitate into the agnostic theist category, with a Christian influence.

                  I don’t have much of a problem with science, although it’s not one of my strongest interests. I think science is relatively limited by design. It’s not the individual waves that count but the tide slowly encroaching upon the shore. One idea will be proven false and another will eventually replace it. Somewhere in that time, a little ground will have been gained. That’s the way it works.

                • Ann said

                  Just a little overboard, agnostic theist Christian who’s not New Age or mystical, but has mystical beliefs and who goes to church sometimes. (WTF?). LOL!

                  Teasing you…

                • JN said

                  I never inhaled.

            • JN said

              Just as an aside…we’re all cool. My comments were a bit tongue and cheek, but sometimes I can’t resist addressing the undercurrents.

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